There were anxious whispers behind the scenes ahead of the Bake Club July recipe reveal. Concerns floated around that it might have been a bit too esoteric. Sweet corn in a cake? And not just any cake but a delightfully bouncy butter mochi made with sweet rice flour. Senior Test Kitchen editors Shilpa Uskokovic and Jesse Szweczyk were bracing for the reactions in the comments section when Shilpa’s Sweet Corn Butter Mochi With Coconut Crunch recipe finally dropped.

“We were not slightly worried. I was like, "This is gonna flop." This is it for us,” recalls Jesse on the BA Bake Club Podcast. But, the Bake Club community once again proved themselves to be the confident, curious bakers we know and love. The cake is a hit!

“I hope you guys know how much it means to us,” says Shilpa. “I'm very touched every month when you guys bake our recipes, and we see you in the Substack chat and you post these pictures. So, this is very heartwarming for me.”

The love fest continues as we award Baker of the Month to one bake clubber who dared to pair his Sweet Corn Butter Mochi with dinner, not dessert.

Plus, we (virtually) jetted off to Hawaii to catch up with Katherine Yang, who ran the incredibly successful by-order cake bakery, Gigi Blue, and is currently executive pastry chef at Mille Fête in Honolulu’s Chinatown. To learn about the dessert scene in Hawaii and pick up a few tips for the perfect butter mochi cake, give the episode a listen.

You can find Katherine Yang on social media at GigiBlueNYC and millefete.

Jesse Szewczyk: I'm Jesse Szewczyk.

Shilpa Uskokovic: And I'm Shilpa Uskokovic.

JS: We are both senior test kitchen editors at Bon Appetit.

SU: And this is BA Bake Club.

JS: Bake Club is Bon Appetit's community of confident, curious bakers.

SU: We're creating the nerdiest and most wholesome corner of the baking internet.

JS: Every month, we publish a recipe on bonappetit.com that introduces a baking concept we think you should know.

SU: Then you'll bake, send us any questions you have or pictures of your finished creations.

JS: And then we'll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe.

SU: The August Bake Club recipe is for a plum cheesecake karpatka and it's live now on bonappetit.com. We'll tell you a little bit about it at the end of the episode.

JS: But today we are getting corny. It is Shilpa's recipe for sweet corn butter mochi cake.

SU: Yes, this one ... The cake that surprised us all is how I'll-

JS: The cake that surprised us all. I told her, I said, "Shilpa, this is a bad idea."

SU: Yes. And I was like, "I know it's not going to do well, Jesse, but sometimes we've got to branch out," and it really popped off.

JS: And it did great so I was wrong.

SU: We all were. We all doubted this one.

JS: There are lots of amazing listener questions for this one and an ingredient we don't usually see in cakes, actual sweet corn. So, Shilpa, how did this come about?

SU: Well, I love Hawaiian butter mochi cake-

JS: Yes.

SU: ... I actually love the flavor and texture of it a lot so I knew I wanted to do something with it. And this particular recipe, it was less of a technical challenge. How, in Bake Club, we always try to center our recipes around some sort of technique, this one wasn't as much of a technical challenge as it was about introducing some of our Bake Club members to a different taste profile or a different texture profile. Butter mochi, as a cake, it has a very unique texture that is completely unlike any cake that we see.

JS: Yeah, explain it to listeners if they're like, "What is this?"

SU: It is a very chewy cake.

JS: Capital C chewy?

SU: Yes.

JS: Yes.

SU: It's like squishing ... I want to say it's like squishing down on very soft toasted milk bread but that also feels a little bit esoteric.

JS: I don't know. It's squishier than that.

SU: Yeah. It's almost like bouncy on your tooth just a little bit and then it slips down your throat in this very satisfying way. I wrote this down and I think it's a little esoteric, to be honest, but perhaps the closest textural thing would be like a Far Breton which is a classic French pastry and like a clafoutis but it basically has no crumb and it's also quite chewy. Anyway, butter mochi is just incredibly soft and chewy and has a really fun texture, I liken it ... I think of it as the gummy bear of cakes-

JS: Yeah, that's good, yeah. That's good.

SU: ... in many ways and I just felt like this was a moment for our bake clubbers to experience this.

JS: Okay, sure. So, we'll get more into that but let's start off with the basics of this recipe. We're going to need the official Bake Club jaunty music so there it is. Shilpa, very quickly, can you just break down the steps of your recipe?

SU: This might be one of our easiest recipes ever, in many ways, it's quite simple. You start with the star of the show which is fresh summer corn, I did also test this with frozen corn and it was perfectly fine but it's August. You strip the corn off the cob, you get them in the blender and you whisk it all up with eggs, melted butter, a can of sweetened condensed milk, regular milk, salt and there's a little bit of vanilla as well. And then, once that's blended, you pour it into a bowl and you fold in the other star of the show, I suppose, which is glutinous rice flour and a little bit of baking powder.

And then you put this in a pan and, about three quarters of the way through baking, I add a coconut topping that's made with coconut flakes, sugar, butter and a splash of milk and then the final cake comes out. After it's fully baked, it comes out with this crunchy whale of caramelized coconut on top and, when you cut in, it's like this nice golden yellow inside.

JS: It's almost like a coconut feuilletine on top.

SU: Yeah-

JS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SU: ... it really is.

JS: Yes. It's a very fun cake, it's super delicious. It's corn, it's caramelly, how could it be bad?

SU: Yeah, it's a really tasty cake and it's a fun texture, it's fun to make. It's not a looker. It's a very plain looking cake, I will say, it's not-

JS: It's understated.

SU: It's understated, yes.

JS: Yes, [inaudible 00:04:38].

SU: How diplomatic.

JS: Yes.

SU: Yeah. It's one of our less showy desserts but I think everything else is working so hard that it's still just as amazing as all of our offerings on Bake Club.

JS: And do you want to tell people where the inspiration came from?

SU: I think this is a story we need to say together.

JS: Okay.

SU: Because ... Okay, Jesse and I have been wanting a corn dessert in our Bake Club line up for so long because we believe in it.

JS: Yeah, since the beginning.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: And then I think we were brainstorming, not for this round, but for maybe the previous round or whatever, we were brainstorming at some time-

JS: Every other round.

SU: Every other round and we were like, "What can we make with corn? What can we make with corn?" And then one of us, I can't remember who it was at this point, was like, "Caramel corn." And we said, "What if it's caramel corn flan?"

JS: Yeah. No, not popcorn-

SU: Yeah.

JS: ... but corn custard as the flan-

SU: Exactly.

JS: ... and then just the caramel.

SU: And the caramel is the caramel in the caramel ... And we thought this was so smart.

JS: Yeah, we thought we peaked here. Everyone was like, "What is this?"

SU: Yes. And they were like, "Are there kernels in the flan?" We were like, "No."

JS: And they're like, "And would you be open to kernels?" And we're like, "No."

SU: Nobody got this pitch and we were very lucky that Inez, our colleague, she said, "Oh, this is actually a Mexican dessert, flan de elote."

JS: Yeah, it turns out a nation invented it before we did.

SU: Yes. So, we had to let it rest but, I don't know, I was hellbent on getting corn into a dessert some way.

JS: Sure.

SU: And I really didn't want to pair it with blueberries because I feel like you often see corn and blueberries as a dessert pairing and I was like, "What can I make? What can I make?" And then I was like, "Wait, it's mochi cake," because it is so accepting of a high amount of liquid that I knew I could get away with.

JS: Yeah. Let's talk about mochi for maybe those who are uninitiated. So, what is mochi, first of all?

SU: Well, mochi is, traditionally, Japanese treat, I will say, because it doesn't always have to be sweet and it's typically made with short grain rice that is first steamed and then it's pounded down until it becomes the sticky paste. And I don't know if you've ever seen those videos, these men pounding.

JS: Right. Yeah, they're like, "Pum, pum, pum, pum, pum."

SU: Yeah.

JS: And I'm like, "Oh, they're hands."

SU: It's backbreaking work to make-

JS: Yeah, I'm scared they're going to hit their hands.

SU: ... mochi, it's wonderful to see. There's two men with huge wooden, I think, hammers.

JS: Dowels, yeah.

SU: Yeah. And they pummel this rice into submission and they make these chewy shapes out of them in the end. And then the sticky rice, once it's pounded into this paste, it's really chewy and soft and moist, it's shaped into whatever shape. Sometimes it's round, sometimes it's blocks, sometimes it's cut into squares and it can be eaten fresh right then and there. Sometimes it's filled with a, traditionally in Japan, I think it's a sweet red bean paste, sometimes it's rolled in kinako which is a roasted soybean powder.

JS: They put it over ice cream, yeah.

SU: Yeah. Oh, my God, I love it with ice cream, it's so good.

JS: Or daifuku.

SU: Yes.

JS: Yeah.

SU: It is so good. So, that's the origin story of mochi, I would say.

JS: Mochi, yes.

SU: Most traditional sense of mochi.

JS: And then butter mochi.

SU: Butter mochi, it's a completely different beast and there's lots of different origin stories. It is usually attributed to being a Hawaiian thing, it's almost always called the Hawaiian butter mochi because it is very popular in Hawaii and many people believe it was brought over by Japanese immigrants to Hawaii, the process of making mochi and then, from there, built into this dessert made using shelf-stable ingredients like sweetened condensed milk or evaporated milk. Some people also believe it has some sort of connection with Portuguese and Indian desserts-

JS: Oh, interesting.

SU: ... because they also have a similarly chewy texture.

JS: So, this is your spin on it?

SU: Yes.

JS: Yes.

SU: As in it's taking ... The bones are very much the same but I toyed with the liquid component of it.

JS: Sure, sure, sure, sure.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Okay. So, let's get into the recipe development, actually, of this. So, where did you start?

SU: This one was actually fairly easy and I think I'd like to say that recipes aren't always created in a vacuum and I think this was a great example of that, of how much you research and learn from other preexisting recipes. Bon Appetit, we have a number of delicious mochi cake recipes on our website which proved to be a great base and so the only trick here was really figuring out how much ... What I needed to adjust in the liquid. I feel like I've said liquid 10 times in this episode already. But the only trick here, really, was for me to figure out what to tinker within the liquid ratio to accommodate the corn. And with the corn part, I knew going in that I wanted it pureed and not just kernels because I didn't want anything interrupting that chew.

JS: I remember some people wanted kernels and I was like, "Eww, I don't know about that one."

SU: Unnamed persons.

JS: Yeah. I'm from Illinois, I don't love corn that much.

SU: Well, exactly. I didn't want anything interrupting that chewy texture of mochi but I wanted to infuse it with corn flavor. I didn't want to mess around with infusing corn kernels or something like that so I thought, okay, I'm going to blend the corn down because you can really blend corn into almost like a, this is going to sound disgusting, but corn milk.

JS: Yeah.

SU: That sound disgusting.

JS: Like corn soup.

SU: Yeah, sure, that sounds better, into a corn soup. So, I think it was just a matter of me recalibrating the amount of liquid that's traditionally in a mochi recipe to accommodate this extra liquid.

JS: Sure. But when you blend it, you just use it, you don't strain it. Because for my lemon bars, I strained it because it was bitsy.

SU: Yes, that makes sense. But also it was a textural thing, you strained it because you wanted a smooth lemon bar.

JS: It was like custard.

SU: Yes.

JS: Yes.

SU: And in many ways it was similar to why I didn't want to put whole kernels instead, I blended the corn so we were both chasing that smoother texture. And, yes, in the butter mochi cake, in the corn one, I don't strain the corn after blending it because it does blend down quite fine. It breaks down, especially if you're using something like a high-powered blender, like a Vitamix, it pretty much becomes, as you said, soup, a fine ... A cream of corn-

JS: A cream of corn.

SU: ... butter mochi soup.

JS: So, you have your corn?

SU: Yeah.

JS: Your milk?

SU: Yeah.

JS: Eggs in there?

SU: There's eggs in there.

JS: Butter?

SU: There's melted butter and then there's a can of sweetened condensed milk.

JS: And you blend that all up.

SU: You blend that all up.

JS: And then a question we always get is can I make this gluten-free but you go in with flour but this is a special flour.

SU: This is a special flour, it's already gluten-free.

JS: But it's not rice flour.

SU: Yes. It's a special type of rice flour, yes.

JS: Okay.

SU: It is mochiko which is a glutinous ... It's a sweet rice flour.

JS: Okay.

SU: And it's sometimes confusingly called glutinous rice flour though there isn't any gluten, I think it's just referring to the chewy-

JS: The stickiness, yeah.

SU: ... gelatinous consistency of it. Yeah, so this is one of those recipes that is naturally gluten-free without us needing to adapt a single thing. Bob's Red Mill is incredibly easy to source.

JS: Yeah, they got ... Yeah, yeah.

SU: And that's the one I used.

JS: Bob's come through.

SU: And the Bob's red one is, I think, almost always labelled sweet rice flour.

JS: Okay, okay.

SU: And that one is easy to find. And you can also use the Thai versions of sticky rice flour, Thai sticky rice flour also works really well.

JS: But just don't use rice flour.

SU: No. You cannot use just regular rice flour because-

JS: Something would happen.

SU: Yeah. It would be dry, it would be dry as hell and I think it may not be super crumbly. You would get something, it would make a cake-like object-

JS: Sure, sure.

SU: ... but you wouldn't get the chew that we're talking about in butter mochi, it's addictive texture.

JS: Sure, sure, sure. So, if your grocery store doesn't have it, go to another one.

SU: He said it.

JS: Okay, cool, cool. But you also top yours with a little something special, you have a mid-baked shenanigan going on.

SU: Yes.

JS: So, what's up with the top? I remember the topping, actually, it's ... I don't know if it proved challenging but maybe it proved a lot of people had opinions on what the topping could or should be.

SU: Yes. I think this was a great example of sometimes just listen to your instincts. Well, I wanted to top this with something because one of the defining factors of mochi cake is that it has a nice crust on top. So, I wanted to amplify that by putting a topping on and the one that I chose was a coconut topping.

JS: Which I think is not uncommon.

SU: Yes.

JS: Yeah.

SU: My original inspiration for this was the Danish cake, it's called Danish dream cake and it's usually made with very finely shredded coconut and butter, sugar, whatever and it's on a yellow cake almost, a very buttery yellow cake. So, I thought of that and I was like, "Oh, let's use it on the butter mochi cake." So, I did it the first time, I remember, with the flaked coconut, worked great, put it up-

JS: Yeah, it was good, I remember.

SU: ... served it, bunch of us loved it.

JS: Yeah.

SU: There was one person amongst our tasting panel in the test kitchen who said that the coconut may be possibly overpowering the corn. So, I took that feedback to heart and I went back and in the same tasting somebody suggested, "Oh, why not try with cornflakes?" And I thought that was a brilliant idea, I was like-

JS: Yeah, I thought it was really fun too.

SU: ... "Great, let's try it with cornflakes instead of coconut using the same methodology." You melt the butter, melt the sugar, add this cornflakes salt, pour it on top of the cake. It just did not work.

JS: Yeah. I feel like, for it to have worked, it would've been a pain in the ass.

SU: Yeah.

JS: You would've had to almost caramelize them, do this whole separate thing.

SU: Yes.

JS: Yeah. They sogged out a lot.

SU: They sogged out a lot because it's all about timing. You want to get the topping on after the mochi has set just a little bit so it doesn't sink all the way to the bottom because, if you put it ... That's also the reason why I couldn't put it on right at the beginning when there were some suggestions made why couldn't you put the topping on from the beginning but it would just sink to the bottom and then you would lose the crunchy topping.

So, I knew the topping had to go on halfway or a little bit more than halfway into the baking process after the top had set and, when I did it with the cornflakes, when it went on at that stage, there was simply no purchase almost. They just sat on top and, sure, they caramelized really well and it tasted really good but, when I went to flip it out, it's just-

JS: It's just like a sheet, yeah.

SU: Yeah, it just came off of the top of the cake and it was two separate components. So then I thought long and hard about it, I really tried everything, I think, for a while.

JS: You tried several options, yeah, I remember.

SU: Yeah. I tried crushing the cornflakes smaller, I tried adding them earlier, I tried reducing the amount of milk, I tried adding the cornflakes later. I gave it a good try and then I was like, "You know what? Sometimes you just can't fit a square peg in a round hole and I'm just going to go back to the coconut topping that I think was pretty good."

JS: And I think, once we saw the other side, we realized how good we had it.

SU: Yes, yes. Sometimes I feel like that's what needs to happen.

JS: That is the sad life lesson.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Sometimes you need to walk the other path to realize. So, I went back to the coconut and that's that. I called it a coconut crunch sweet corn butter mochi cake.

JS: I support the decision, the coconut's delicious.

SU: Thank you. You were a supporter from the beginning.

JS: I was a supporter.

SU: You saw the original vision.

JS: Okay, Shilpa, so you have the topping. So, how does one get this cake out then if it has the topping?

SU: There is a moment when you're going to doubt yourself-

JS: Okay.

SU: ... because you have to flip the cake.

JS: Sure.

SU: After the cake is baked, the coconut topping is on there and you have to invert it. And I say invert it onto a parchment lined sheet tray or plate and then you have to flip it back so the topping side is up.

JS: Sure, sure, sure.

SU: Listen, I could have gone maybe, I don't want to call it the easier route, but I had an alternative, I could have called for a spring form pan-

JS: But not everyone has, yeah.

SU: Exactly.

JS: And they leak.

SU: And they leak.

JS: Yeah, no, they scare me.

SU: And they leak. So, I didn't-

JS: And it's a wet batter.

SU: Yeah, yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: It's not liquid but it's enough to give me concern.

JS: Yeah, me too.

SU: I think that would make me more nervous than having to flip the cake out. So, I made the decision to just put it in a regular square pan and then you just got to do like tsch, tschk, two flips.

JS: You just got to have confidence.

SU: Yeah, you just go with it.

JS: All right, okay, great. And wait, how do you eat this cake? Because some cakes are eat it warm, eat it chilled, eat a room temp.

SU: Oh, yeah.

JS: How is a mochi cake meant to be eaten?

SU: I like this room temp. I don't like it screaming hot, I think you don't quite get the full texture.

JS: It sets a bit, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SU: Yeah, yeah. I think, once it cools down a little bit, it gelatinizes in a way and becomes even chewier and exactly what you would expect. So, I like this room temp, it keeps for a few days.

JS: What about chilled?

SU: Oh. Yeah, it would be good chilled.

JS: Yeah?

SU: It would be good chilled as well. It usually doesn't last longer than a day, to be honest. Yeah, this is great at room temp and you cut off little squares of it and go to town.

JS: There you go. I ate this for weeks and it was good any temperature I had it.

SU: We are going to take a quick break.

JS: And when we get back, we'll answer some listener questions about Shilpa's sweet corn butter mochi cake.

SU: Welcome back to BA Bake Club.

JS: And maybe confession but I know we touched on it earlier but we were slightly worried this recipe was maybe a little too esoteric for the Bake Club.

SU: We were very worried.

JS: Yes.

SU: Let's be honest, we were not slightly worried, we were really worried. I-

JS: I was like, "This is going to flop."

SU: Yes. I remember-

JS: This is it for us.

SU: But the video popped off.

JS: The video did pop off, yes.

SU: Yes. People loved it.

JS: And people have been making it.

SU: Maritza did such an amazing job with the video, she did an ASMR style video, one of our first for Bake Club. And, if you haven't watched it, you guys should on our Instagram, it was a great reception and-

JS: Yeah. The bake clubbers, they popped off with this too.

SU: Yeah.

JS: They did a great job.

SU: They really did. Thank you, guys. I hope you guys know ... I'm going to be a little earnest here but I-

JS: You're allowed.

SU: I hope you guys know how much it means to us if I can say that, Jesse. Certainly to me, I am very touched every month when you guys bake our recipes and we see you in the Substack chat and you post these pictures. We don't often get to connect with the people who actually make our recipes so to be able to do so is very heartwarming for me.

JS: No, yeah, it's a very beautiful experience.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Okay, we're done being earnest.

SU: Yes, we're back.

JS: For a while, once a year. Okay, Shilpa, are you ready for some questions?

SU: Absolutely.

JS: Okay, great. First up, we have a question from Santiago on our Substack. Santiago says, "Hi. So, where I live is difficult to find sweet rice flour for July's recipe, how could I replace it? Maybe glutinous rice flour, regular rice flour, tapioca flour or cornstarch?"

SU: Santiago sort of answered his own question because glutinous rice flour is in fact sweet rice flour.

JS: There you go.

SU: So, glutinous rice flour is the same. Regular rice flour, no. However, glutinous rice flour is synonymous with sweet rice flour so you get there.

JS: There You go. We have a question from Michelle Q. I made this last week and, every time I shared a square with a friend, I saw jaws, capital letters, drop. Shilpa, you made me look like a baking genius.

SU: Wow.

JS: But because I am nitpicky, oh, I did feel like there was maybe more texture to my mochi cake from corn than I would've liked, a little gritty maybe. Did I not blend it long enough? Did you guys ever try it with par boiled corn going into the blender? I'd love to make this even more perfect.

SU: I love a but because. I grew up with a but because dad. Nothing could be absolutely perfect, it was it's great but. This is a great question, I think it comes down to a-

JS: [inaudible 00:20:38] blender.

SU: Yeah. I was going to say it comes down to the blender.

JS: Yeah.

SU: I almost always tested this in a very high-powered blender like a Vitamix.

JS: And a Vitamix is not a normal blender.

SU: It is not.

JS: Yeah.

SU: It obliterates anything.

JS: We sometimes lose context of-

SU: I suppose.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Yes.

JS: Because a regular blendy ... Blendy? A regular blender, a regular blendy-

SU: I love it. A blendy?

JS: A regular blendy is bad, a lot of them.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

SU: You have to put it through its paces.

JS: Yeah.

SU: Yes, I think we are spoiled with a Vitamix in that it turns anything into water in a few seconds. I would say two things to Michelle. One, it might be a blender but that's fine, nobody's asking you to go out and replace a blender.

JS: And if it's gritty, should she then strain it?

SU: That would be ... I'm loathed to say that because I feel like you're going to lose something in there.

JS: Sure, yeah, you just don't know.

SU: Yeah. And I wouldn't strain it, I would also try to think about the type of corn that I'm using. Is it fresh versus frozen and sometimes you really want the most tender. If you're using fresh, you really want the most tender corn that you can find. Sometimes, later in the season, we get a much more overgrown, mature corn that has much tougher kernels.

JS: Sure.

SU: So, sometimes it could be the corn. If you're using frozen corn, which I did use and I was quite successful in my test, I think you should again look for something that's golden sweet corn or something like that or something that publicizes the word tender and sweet on the package when you know there's slightly smaller kernels.

JS: Sure. And Vitamix, if you're listening, let's send Michelle Q. a Vitamix.

SU: Wow, yes.

JS: I'm putting it out there for Michelle, okay?

SU: Yes.

JS: I'm manifesting for you. Okay. We have a couple questions from Mark on the final steps of the bake. This turned out delicious. My first time working with glutinous rice flour so thanks for adding it to my wheelhouse. In an eight-inch pan after 35 minutes, the cake was getting pretty brown although still pretty jiggly in the center. I decided to put the topping on then and it seemed like it was done after the additional 18 minutes. Was a little concerned I had over baked it as I waited until a cake tester came out almost clean. On tasting, the consistency seemed to be what I had expected, definitely had a bouncy bite. Wasn't sure if I should have baked it a little less and then let the 20-minute pan rest complete the bake. Any advice on that?

I had a lot of unsweetened shredded coconut at home so I used that instead of the flakes, was a bit difficult to spread but the coconut crunch ended up delicious and caramelized. I really enjoyed making and eating this for breakfast this morning, thanks so much. And Mark has some photos.

SU: Wow, what a perfect square, yeah.

JS: The texture looks nice.

SU: Yeah. Mark got such a clean cut on that square mochi cake. Okay, couple of things here. First of all, I love the use of the word wheelhouse, that is such a lovely word, wheelhouse. Second, Mark notes that they've used an eight-inch pan and I think the recipe calls for a nine-inch pan. So ... Did I call for an eight-pan?

JS: You called for either.

SU: Okay, that's fair.

JS: Shilpa the liar.

SU: Well, I did test a lot with the nine-

JS: You did test both. You tested both, yeah, I remember.

SU: Yes, I tested both and, in a nine-inch pan, it goes progressively faster. In an eight-inch pan, I think that could explain why it felt like it was getting brown on top but perhaps still runny or jiggly in the center. The thing about mochi cake is you can actually not really over bake it unless you're completely negligent and unless you leave it for hours, you really can't over bake a mochi cake. So, unlike my advice on almost all other cakes, I would say, for a mochi cake, you can err on the side of over-baking rather than under-baking. So, that's my response to the whole baking texture and should I have let it bake a lot longer. No, I would say you almost can never over bake a mochi cake. And what is the other question there?

JS: The tips for spraying the coconut.

SU: Oh, the coconut. Listen, that step does, again, require a little-

JS: Finesse.

SU: ... faith and finesse because there isn't a lot of coconut topping on there. I didn't want this thick cap of frosting, I wanted more a nice veil as I mentioned before. So, there isn't a lot going on and I get it, there's hot cake in a hot pan and you're getting this hot topping on there and you're using a spatula to spread it out and at times it's like, "Oh, it's never going to cover the surface," but it will. So, in that moment, there really isn't anything that you can do besides take your time. Really, once that cake is set, it doesn't deflate as much and it isn't going to hurt the integrity of the crumb if you take an extra five minutes to spread the coconut topping on there. So, it really is just a matter of taking your time to go all the way.

JS: Yeah, it's not going to deflate or something.

SU: Yeah. It's not like a [inaudible 00:25:48] or a sponge, a moment is going to kill it.

JS: Sure, sure, sure.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Katie had a similar question about the topping. Katie wrote, "Made the sweet corn butter mochi. I wasn't sure I'd like the mochi texture but I do, it's super yummy. After I added the topping, I put the cake back in the oven and it rose again, a little of the topping got pushed off. Did I not bake it long enough the first round or is that normal?" And she also has a photo here and it looks good.

SU: Yeah, they look great. I think the fun thing to point out is Katie and Mark used two opposite types of coconut flakes.

JS: Oh, yeah, yeah.

SU: Mark used a very finely shredded coconut flake and Katie used more like chips almost and I call for coconut flakes in the recipe. You really can use whatever kind you have on hand. I did notice though that sometimes using super finely shredded coconut or extremely big flakes of coconut change the way it adheres to the topping-

JS: Sure, sure, sure.

SU: ... adheres to the top of the cake. The smaller the flake, generally, the better it stays on top but it can come out as dry because there's more surface area of coconut that needs to be coated in that syrup which is a finite amount. And if you use big flakes of coconut, I sometimes notice that it can flake off the cake completely. So, there is a Goldilocks flake size.

JS: Sure.

SU: But again, that sounds a little too finicky and it really did work with either. Why did Katie's topping get pushed off? Yeah, I think it sounds to me like it could have baked a little bit longer in the first round because it seems to me like it didn't fully expand and then, when Katie put it back in the oven, it continued to rise and expand and maybe broke open the seal of the coconut crunch on top. From the picture, it looks like a great amount of coverage, I don't think anything is lost.

JS: No, it's pretty, yeah.

SU: Yeah, it's really beautiful. But, Katie, if you do make it next time, try to leave it in for maybe 10 minutes longer than the previous time before you add the topping.

JS: Fair enough, yeah. Okay, we have a message now from Rachel who has some flipping anxiety. Same, Rachel. She writes, "Bouncy, chewy and I think the coconut flakes added a nice textural contrast. This was super easy to make and I cannot wait to share it with my gluten-free friends. It reminded me of a mochi malasada." I don't know what that is. "The flip"-

SU: We can Google it.

JS: Yeah, Google it, Google it. Mochi malasada, here.

SU: Mochi malasada.

JS: Oh, wow, these look so cool.

SU: Jesse, we need these.

JS: Damn.

SU: Oh, it's a mochi donut, Jesse.

JS: Oh, it's the original mochi donut.

SU: God. We need this. Okay.

JS: Okay, okay, anyways, focus.

SU: Yes.

JS: Rachel said, "The flip was a bit harrowing. Any tips?"

SU: Okay, here's the thing. Yes, there is ... It's like when you have to transfer a fully frosted cake onto the serving platter-

JS: Sure.

SU: ... there's always going to be that moment of will it, won't it. The flipping, yes, is a bit harrowing indeed. As I explained earlier, it's one, two, you flip and you flip back. Rachel, what has helped me in the past is allowing the cake to get completely cold in the cake pan before you flip. I think that lessens the anxiety of doing it and you're not having to deal with a warm pan so that certainly helped me in the past.

JS: And Rachel also has some photos and the topping looks unscathed.

SU: Yeah.

JS: It looks good.

SU: It's great stickage and coverage.

JS: Yeah. So, your flip was successful.

SU: The flip was very successful.

JS: Okay. And, finally, we have a comment from Jason P. Who says cake is just for dessert? This turned out great and it was a perfect side with some barbecue pork and summer vegetable slaw.

SU: Jason, you (beep) me up with this one, I'll be honest.

JS: Okay. As someone from the Midwest though, I'm like, "This makes sense to me."

SU: It totally makes sense.

JS: It's like cornbread.

SU: Yes. I was like, "Why didn't I think of this?"

JS: Actually, a chili with the corn mochi?

SU: Yeah. That'd be good, no?

JS: Dice it up, put it on top.

SU: And Jason has a picture.

JS: Looks good.

SU: Yeah. There's braised, I guess, pork, barbecue pork and a coleslaw. Damn. Why didn't I think of this?

JS: I don't know. Jason knows something we don't.

SU: I love it. We need to make this, Jesse, in the test kitchen. I guess, listen, for everybody listening, mochi cake is more than cake, it can also be cornbread with your barbecue pork.

JS: Corn mochi cake is the new cornbread, there you go. And before we take a break, it is time for our new tradition, the Baker of the Month Award. Shilpa, who gets the kudos this month?

SU: I think the answer is easy. This one goes to Jason.

JS: Jason?

SU: Yes.

JS: Damn.

SU: I love that Jason did something unexpected and then paired it with-

JS: Savory.

SU: ... savory food and treated it like a cornbread. I think-

JS: Jason, where are you from?

SU: Yeah. Jason, where are you from?

JS: I'm from Illinois so I'm asking you with love in my heart, okay?

SU: I think it's absolutely brilliant, I think Jason stretched their imagination and what more could we ask for? Jason, you're our baker of the month.

JS: You are our baker of the month.

SU: We are going to take another break.

JS: And when we get back, we're going to introduce you to a baker we think you should know.

SU: Welcome back to BA Bake Club.

JS: It is the time of the show where we phone a friend and introduce you to a baker we think you should know about.

SU: This month, we're going all the way to Hawaii.

JS: Yes. This month's guest is Katherine Yang, she's executive pastry chef at Mille Fete that is found in Honolulu's Chinatown. But before her move to Hawaii, Katherine had a very successful by order cake bakery Gigi Blue, she is an incredibly talented baker with an almost three decades of experience working with some big names, chefs like Daniel Boulud and Thomas Keller.

SU: Katherine, welcome to BA Bake Club, we're really, really excited to have you.

JS: We're so excited.

Katherine Yang: Thank you for having me on.

SU: Katherine, would you like to tell listeners a little bit about yourself?

KY: So, before I was a pastry chef, after graduating from college, I really didn't know what I wanted to do, however, my father did not want me to become a cook or a chef or do anything in the kitchen. As an immigrant, first generation immigrant, they want you to become a professional. So, I went into real estate property management for about four years, my mom was pressuring me to go to law school or business school so, while I was studying for that, I saw an ad for the French Culinary Institute in New York City and had just opened up the pastry arts program and I'm like, "You know what? This is what I really want to do." So, I told my parents, "You know what? I don't want to go to law school, I don't want to go to the business school, I really want to do this." My dad was like-

SU: I'm sure that went down really well.

KY: Oh, yeah. So, my father was like, "Okay, go work in the bakery first," thinking that would dissuade me.

SU: Fair.

KY: So, I went, I loved working in the bakery and they saw how committed I was, how much I loved it so they're like, "Okay, we will send you to the pastry arts program at French Culinary Institute." And then, after living in New York for a month, I totally fell in love with the city and decided I needed to stay. And then so around 2000 ... I think around 2011, I started Gigi Blue doing cakes and small desserts from my apartment in New York City.

SU: Oh, wow. I didn't know you started in 2011. Wow.

KY: Yeah, it was a while back. And then I did it for quite a while and around 2000 and probably 17, my present business partners and friends, Chuck Busler and Robin my EE, they had asked me to move out to Hawaii to open up a bakery with them and, at that time, I was seriously considering it but then I couldn't leave New York. I still love living in New York, I still wanted to be here but then, after COVID, there was a shift in my thinking, I had just become very, very burnt out. I had another opportunity to open up something in New York City but I realized I really missed working with people, I missed collaborating and I just missed having people around me. But then, so after COVID, they reached out again to me asking me again if I wanted to do this bakery concept with them and I said at that point that I was ready to come here to Hawaii. So, that's why I made the move from New York City to Hawaii.

SU: So, was that your first time going to Hawaii then when you-

KY: It was.

SU: Wow.

KY: I think it was 2022 we had that discussion. So, I came out here for two weeks to work with them in the kitchen and we spoke a lot about what kind of bakery that she envisioned, what kind of bakery that I envisioned, what kind of desserts that we ... And we were very much in sync on that.

SU: And what is your baking philosophy, Katherine?

KY: For me, it's just making things that are delicious and people love to eat. I don't necessarily want things to be too precious. At the very start of my baking career, doing all the fabulous French entremets, all the beautiful desserts, I participated in pastry competitions, doing passiage work, doing chocolate work with my early chefs. But I realized, as I went along doing that, I didn't want food to be an arts and craft, I want it to be just about making delicious food that people could enjoy, that's how we decide what goes on the menu. A lot of what you see on the menu is either things that we've created for family and friends that it's something that they love or something that we love or something from our past that, you know what, we can't find and we want to recreate.

JS: What should people know about the baking and dessert scene in Hawaii? I've never been so I don't know much about it.

KY: It's very robust here. So, because Hawaii is an island or the Hawaiian ... The Hawaiian islands are all the way out in the Pacific, they do a lot ... There's so much arts and crafts here and I consider baking to be a craft also so you see bakeries everywhere, people bake at home. Gathering for parties, for graduations, for celebrations here in Hawaii is very, very big here. Also, the gift-giving culture, because of the Japanese influence here with the omiyage, to going to somebody's house, you bring a gift. When you return from a trip, you bring people a gift. When you go visit people, you bring people a gift. So, there's a lot of homemade goods that people do make here. It's, I think, very ingrained and part of the Hawaiian culture here among the people as well as a lot of the bakeries that are here.

Most of the bakeries that you find here traditionally have a lot of Japanese influence as far as the style of the bakeries and also what's served but there's a lot of also cross-cultural influences from Asian flavors to Asian desserts that you'll find here in Hawaii. But you have a lot of great pastry chefs who are doing beautiful viennoiseries, breads and things here. If you come out here to Hawaii, there are many, many, many places the two of you would love to visit. You could spend days and days visiting so many bakeries but I would say you will never go hungry, you will always find something good to eat here at any of the bakeries here in Hawaii.

SU: Jesse, we need Bon Appetit to send us to Hawaii.

JS: Yeah, help convince BA to send us.

KY: Oh, no, please. No, please come, please come and visit.

JS: Research.

SU: We would love to.

JS: Yeah, research.

SU: Okay. Katherine, I think we need to ask you about butter mochi. This month's recipe that I developed for Bake Club is a sweet corn butter mochi and we know it's an iconic Hawaiian dessert.

KY: Yes.

SU: Do you have a butter mochi on the menu at Mille Fete or do you have other experiences with butter mochi? What makes a great butter mochi according to you?

KY: We don't have a here on the menu here at Mille Fete, however, I think the first time I had it was Robin made it for me at a dinner party many, many years ago. And it tasted really familiar because it also reminded me of ... There was a Chinese dessert that's served during the Chinese New Year called nian gao, it's also made with glutinous sticky rice and usually it's made with brown sugar but it has that texture, the mochi texture. When I ate it, I'm like, "This tastes like home to me, tastes like my mom's cooking and tasted really familiar." So, what makes for me a good butter mochi is it has to be the right texture. For me, it can't be too loose, it has to be a good chew.

So, Chinese people, especially Taiwanese people, they love chewy things and this texture is called QQ in Taiwanese. So, you have to have that right chewy texture but I think the most important texture for me in butter mochi is the crisp edges and outside.

JS: So, you have a skin. Yeah, a sugar skin.

KY: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

KY: When you bake it long enough, it develops this great crust. I don't know if you've ever had the butter mochi straight when it comes out of the oven or baked it long enough where it develops the crust but, when it does, you have that contrast of that crispy crust and that soft texture. That to me is a perfect combination and you can only really capture that when it first comes out of the oven because, the longer it sits, the softer ... Everything starts to soften up so you really have to eat it straight from the oven.

SU: I agree.

KY: So, you have those baking pans for brownies that everyone gets an edge?

SU: Oh, the ...

JS: Oh, yeah, yeah.

SU: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

KY: Yeah.

SU: [inaudible 00:39:50]

JS: That's your ideal?

KY: Yeah. So, people should bake butter mochi in those pans.

SU: Okay.

JS: That's smart.

SU: That's a good tip.

JS: That's good, that's good.

SU: Yeah, we love that.

KY: Yeah.

JS: Yeah. A lot of our listeners had concerns about over baking their mochi because I feel like a lot of them weren't familiar with the form. So, what are your tips for ... How would you guide our listeners to feel confident that they're not over baking it?

KY: I've never over baked butter mochi.

JS: There you go.

KY: In fact, I try to go longer just to get that crust. So, I've never gotten to the point where it ever over baked especially if you have the correct recipe.

JS: Yeah. Because I feel like it's unlike a sponge cake or something-

SU: it doesn't dry.

JS: ... it doesn't dry out so easily.

SU: Agree, agree.

KY: Yes, yeah.

JS: Yeah, there's insurance built in here.

SU: Yeah, agree.

JS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SU: I agree. Okay. And then we have another question, it's from a listener Vic. Is condensed milk here actually sweetened condensed milk or is it just evaporated milk? And to give you context, my recipe calls for one can of condensed milk and there's no additional sugar and I think that tripped up a few of our listeners.

JS: This trips up people often actually in recipes, the differences.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yeah.

KY: Yeah. So, evaporated milk does not have any sugar, it's been reduced so there's less water in it. Sweetened condensed milk also has reduced water in there but it is sweetened with sugar so you cannot interchange the two of them. What's great about the both of them is that, for anything that you want a more creamy texture but you don't want to add as much liquid, in the savory application, evaporated milk is a great addition, let's say, for mac and cheese. I also like to use evaporated milk when I'm making something where I'm infusing or trying to get a flavor. I've noticed that, when I've made puddings or even flans or things where heavy cream is in the recipe, sometimes the heavy cream masks the flavor or dulls the flavor so sometimes I'll substitute out the heavy cream with a bit of the evaporated milk because it'll still add the richness but it doesn't add as much fat to it. So, that's what I also do.

JS: That makes sense.

SU: Wow.

JS: Smart, yeah.

KY: Yeah.

SU: Would you ever apply that principle to making ice cream?

KY: Actually, we do.

SU: Oh.

KY: We do, actually, at the bakery.

JS: That's smart.

SU: Yeah. Thank you, Katherine, for answering all of those questions. We're going to move on to a rapid fire round next.

JS: If you're down, yeah.

SU: So, are you ready?

KY: Okay.

SU: Okay.

JS: Okay, I'll start. What is your favorite kitchen tool?

KY: Oh, small offset spatula.

JS: Good one, good one.

That's a very good one. Okay. Who do you call in a baking emergency?

KY: I would call my friend and business partner, Robin, my EE. After that, I probably would call Dorie Greenspan.

JS: Oh.

SU: Oh.

JS: Dorie was a guest on the podcast too, yeah.

SU: Yes, she was. We adore her.

JS: Yeah, she's great. Where have you found an unlikely source of inspiration?

KY: I think I get my best inspiration ... Can I say this? For me to come up with what I want to make or create, I need to be in a space where I'm zoning out. So, a lot of the times, I don't drive so even here in Hawaii so, when I'm on the bus, I'm just not thinking about anything, I don't have headphones on, I just like to think about things and let my mind wander and I think I try to take inspiration from everything that I see.

JS: That's very meditative.

SU: Yeah.

JS: Yes. So, that's enlightenment right there.

SU: Yes.

KY: Yes.

JS: What is your personal favorite baked good?

KY: Yellow layer cake with chocolate frosting. It's my ultimate dessert.

JS: You are enlightened.

SU: Yeah.

KY: And the reason why that is, I don't know, from a very young age, when you see all those Duncan Hines or Betty Crocker commercials or see those cake boxes, but the one with the yellow cake and the chocolate frosting was always my ultimate dessert. Because, growing up in an Asian household, my mom never really made that growing up and, until I was a teenager, I can't make that for myself and, the first time I made it for myself, that was just the ultimate dessert for me.

SU: And what is the best compliment you've ever received on a bake?

KY: It's not too sweet.

JS: Classic, yeah.

SU: Yes. That is an excellent one.

JS: I love that.

SU: Katherine, thank you. We had a blast listening to you.

JS: Yeah, thank you so much.

KY: Thank you very much.

JS: And where can people find you on the internet if they want to follow you?

KY: Oh, my personal IG account is GigiBlueNYC but the bakery's is Millefete. One word, M-I-L-L-E-F-E-T-E.

JS: Perfect. Thank you so much.

SU: Thank you.

KY: Thank you.

JS: Yeah.

SU: That's it for this month's edition of BA Bake Club. Jesse, can you tell our bakers about the August Bake Club recipe?

JS: Yes. So, August Bake Club is a plum cheesecake karpatka. Now, if you're unfamiliar, a karpatka is a Polish dessert and it is essentially, if you could imagine, two round discs of pate a choux, so wonky and big and puffed that is sandwiching a layer of, traditionally, it's a creme mousseline or a lightened pastry cream but I turned it into a no-bake cheesecake karpatka-

SU: [inaudible 00:45:17]

JS: ... that is ribboned with a plum jam. So, I am taking this Polish classic and really making it my own.

SU: It's a magnificent mountain of a dessert is how I like to describe it.

JS: It is a mountain of a dessert, it is big.

SU: It's big, it's dramatic, it is make ahead friendly.

JS: It is a spectacle.

SU: It's a spectacle.

JS: Yes.

SU: It's a great dessert.

JS: It's pretty wild.

SU: Any special equipment or ingredients that you think our baker should have?

JS: Yeah, gelatin powder.

SU: Oh, okay.

JS: Just the classic Knox brand.

SU: Knox?

JS: Yup. And if you have two nine-inch round cake bands, that's great but you could also do it with one and some nice plums.

SU: Perfect. Well, Bake Clubbers, once you bake through the karpatka, send us your pictures and your questions, there are so many different ways to get in touch with us.

JS: You can comment on the recipe on the Epicurious app or, on the Bon Appetit website, comment on our Substack or email us at [email protected]. And if you've made it and loved it, you can rate and review the recipe on our site.

SU: Or you can tell a friend. If you have a friend that should be in Bake Club, please share this episode with them.

JS: We're your hosts, Jesse Szewczyk.

SU: And Shilpa Uskokovic.

JS: This month's episode was produced by Emily Elias.

SU: Pran Bandi is our studio engineer and we had editing by Michele O'Brien.

JS: Research editing by Ryan Harrington.

SU: This episode was mixed by Amar Lal at Macro Sound.

JS: If you like this show, you can leave us a rating and review and hit that follow button so you never miss an episode.

SU: And if you're not already part of the club, head on over to bonappetit.com/bakeclub to find all the information you need to join.

JS: Thanks for listening to BA Bake Club and we'll see you next month.